Kilkenny v Cork - NHL 2010

[aka rwac]

The tail end of the thread about the strike etc from last year suggested a new thread on the core hurling issues, so I'll start one off if that's ok.

Tom mentioned he hadn't seen Cork this year yet. I have, so some views which might generate some obs from your good selves.

I think Cork are doing ok at the moment, with a softish introduction to the league (Offaly at home and a weakened Limerick away) helping matters. I get the sense that Denis Walsh is trying to address the core Cork failing of poor forward aerial ability but going for the obvious solution of big lads (I knew Cork had them hidden away somewhere), though whether these guys have the hurling and innate speed for championship hurling I'm not sure. Mark O'Sullivan from Drispey looks a game lad, not afraid to take a slap on the old paw, but his technique (toe of the bas pointing in when lifting the ball) could cost him on harder ground. He has all the look of a guy to me who will get a lot of league game time but will then slowly fade back to no.24 or something like that come Aug (hopefully Cork get that far).

I always thought Hoggie was a project worth persevering with. He is only 22/23 this year. While some corner-fwds go epic at this age, others are slower burners. For all of Eddie Brennan's good work in the early 00's, he really only impressed me from the 06 final onwards (when despite only scoring 1 pt (?) in that final, he gave a real team performance). The scores for Brennan, and their quality (you can easily forget the quality of his 1st half points last Sept) the last few yrs have been unbelievable.

I think generally, last year's league game against KK notwithstanding, the Cork defence and midfield will keep the opposition score to an attainable level for a good fwd line. The placing of Brian Murphy at half back looks like a move to sharpen up his touch before the move back into the corner, but you never know I suppose. Would prefer Shane O'Neill at half back.

Gardiner could end up with a good year at midfield. The recent trend of midfielders not marking each other, and instead relying on covering half fwds (eg Colin Fennelly chasing Naughton in the recent club semi) could pay dividends for a long striking midfield man.

Cork seem to be playing more direct this year, which appeals to me. It's not that I'm a long ball or a short ball man, but rather I don't like teams becoming too obsessed with one over the other,a trap Cork fell into I think.

KK are the benchmark. Am looking fwd to seeing what gap there is between Cork and KK (can we close on 27pts...), notwithstanding the obvious caveat of the missing Ballyhale lads.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Cork win it actually given the importance of Shefflin to KK.

Hope we don't see any silllyness from the crowd and the players at the match.

[doolittle]

What do you make of Cussen, a potential Martin Comerford or a potential Michael Webster?

[aka rwac]

Re. Cussen, to get to Comerford's level would be some achievement, and I'd take it now ! Seems to have a better temperment than a Webster who really is only interested in the 'messing' aspect of FF play. I think Cussen is first and foremost a ball player (at what level we'll see this year), will be interesting to see what he makes of the attention he'll be getting from full backs. As a big player he could be fouled more often than he gets the frees for. All in all an experiment worth playing a GOOD few games with. Would have him in a different league altogether for Aisake. Am struggling to see what effective role Aisake can play this year - maybe stand in on the keeper because of the square ball rule?

Still the last time Cork had a really big man was 1990 and Mark Foley. 2-7 in a Munster final and 1-1 in an AI final in 1990, all from play. I'd take something similar from Cussen now and see him ride off into the sunset, back to Lilliput...

[tom]

Am struggling to see what effective role Aisake can play this year - maybe stand in on the keeper because of the square ball rule?

As I'm a lowly junior hurler I'm always slow to be overly critical of intercounty players but I'm genuinely at a loss to know what Denis Walsh sees in Aisake. I am assuming that no intercounty manager would be dumb enough to stick with a fella based on family pedigree so what is it? The only other thing is he is tall but height alone doesn't make a target man. In fact he's the type of player I look at and nearly find myself saying that he's too tall and awkward. Cussen, on the other hand, is also tall but I find myself saying that he's potentially a very nice hurler with a big strong frame to boot.

[Bogcat]

Fair play lads, that's more like, I'm sure you more than anyone are sick of the other Shite.

Ref. Aisake and the big man in the square I fear this is something that's going to creep in over the summer and it's not going to be pretty. We saw it at the weekend and if managers don't cop on and use it to their advantage, they'd be foolish. Will this rule be in place for the ch ship or can they scrap it? Maybe Walshe is giving Aisake a chance to get back up to speed. It's a lot to ask of someone after playing a completely different code professionally for the last number of years. If he manages it, it will be a huge achievement.
Horgan seems to be coming on nicely he's strong and very composed on the ball. What's the story with Naughton being a 20 min player, a young fella like him should be able to play two games in a row, I assume he'll be getting the full 70 this year.
What do you think of the commentary that you haven't had a real leader since Corcoran retired. Gardiner is the obvious replacement if he cops himself on and stops pretending he's some sort of hard man.
I think you are right it will be very close down Leeside.

[Boul' Thady Quill]

I would be afraid that out defence is no longer as solid as it used to be. As the full back line appears to grow stronger, the half back line gets weaker. Only Sean Og is the only reliable one there at the moment. Ronan Curran has suffered a major loss of form since the event which shall not be named. John Gardiner has also been less effective on the right side and has been moved to midfield partly because of this, and partly because Jerry O'C no longer has the legs to cover the ground that he used to; indeed there are rumours that he may retire from inter-county.

[Gilabbey_st]

This is a very important game for Cork. They must regain some pride from last year's hammering. In the last few meetings Kilkenny have comprehensively out-played and out-muscled Cork. Kilkenny have the better hurlers but in terms of physicality Cork need to seriously front up as a team and individually next day. I expect Cork to put out a strong team.

Cork seem to be making some of the right changes to catch up to where the game has progressed to in the past few years but the overall quality still looks to be lacking, especially up front. I have doubts about Cussen's ability to operate at the pace and intersity of championship. Aisake has great drive but his skill and hurling intelligence need to develop a lot. Jury is very much out on both big men for me. My big wish/hope is to see Shane O'Neill at midfield for Cork come championship. Half back would be a second choice. A hurler of his ability and hunger for the ball needs to be given the space to express himself.

This is the time for Cork to start hurling again.

[bottlethrower]

Aisaike was a poor minor. He hasn't played much hurling since so I don't see how he'll have improved any. People were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt last year having just come back to the game, etc, but his touch looks no better based on what we saw of him on saturday.

Cussen does look better. But 2 criticisms I'd have of his game on saturday - first, he doesn't use his bulk well. When he gets the ball his bulk makes him hard to tackle, but you never saw him horsing lads out of it the way he maybe should; second, hes quite a cumbersome player and I can envisage a high foul-count against him over the course of the year. While his first goal was well taken there was more than an element of luck about it. His first point was definitely a foul on the Limerick man. The remainder of his scores weren't really made by him as such. He had acre's of space, and the first point I made there meant the Limerick backs couldn't get near him.

Still and all, 1-5 from play is impressive no matter how its got. But, taking into consideration the opposition and time of year I'd say the jury is still very much out. But it does seem Cork are still desperate to fill the void that Brian Corcoran left when he retired. Would they not be better served coming up with a game plan that suits the players they have rather than the players they'd ideally like to have?

[Proud to be a cat!]

Anyone know any nice Hotels near the Cork pitch? (sorry my Irish spelling is not the best)

[Cody's Cap]

It's obvious that the loss of Brian Corcoran was huge to Cork as it meant they couldn't bang the ball into the full forward line and expect them to win a decent percentage. Even though Gorta didn't have a great year last year, in the Galway match I remember the amount of breaks that came off him. The amount of times a back was prevented from winning it by his presence was significant. This showed up again Tipp in the final when our half forward line didn't win enough ball (because the backs were also bailing it out under pressure). Cody has acknowledged this in interviews and Michael Rice being located at centre forward is obviously the long term thinking (being more mobile than Gorta).

I watched the Cork-Limerick game and what struck me was the lack of divil in the Cork forwards. They scored only 2 goals, one of them coming late on. I didn't see any of them really going for it or any great interaction between. Maybe there was just a general malaise about the proceedings.

Cussen was impressive but it was obvious that the Limerick full back (like a few of his colleges) was not up to it physically. It would be interesting to see how Hogan will handle him. For a big man to be able to spread panic he needs to be able to drive at goal. Looking at Joe Canning, it's his ability to win the ball and turn the full back, while remaining in control that makes all the difference.

[aka rwac]

The point about the Cork fwds lacking a bit of divil is well made. I posted earlier about Mark Foley. Unfortunately I think Cussen could be a similar 'gentle giant' figure. I'd be interested to see him get a slap or an auld poke and see how he'll react.

I'm not so sure about Cork trying to come up with a gameplan to suit the better, smaller hurlers of Cork (assuming the smaller hurlers of Cork are better than the bigger lads). Cork tried this for a while and were very successful with it but KK in particular adapted very well to it, so some kind of a change is warranted in Cork's approach. The innovation in the puc out brought by Cork has been well sussed these days. With deep lying midfielders and half fwd lines similarly dropping back, the finding of space for a fwd moving onto a puc out are well gone I think. The only alternatives I can see to route 1 are:

quick puc outs before a team is set - but refs generally don't allow them
adopt an even higher risk puc out strategy where you puc to a corner back and more of less handpass up the line to midfield, attempting to draw out the cover. Interestingly, this is what some Cork players felt they should have done in the 06 final. Not sure myself.

In general I think media analysts place too much emphasis on catching clean puc outs. T'would be nice to catch them clean of course, but for me the fwds 1st priority is to stop the back catching the ball. Surely fwds everywhere owe the backs a bit of messing for the shite they put up with under the dropping ball? Get the ball on the ground and the game equalises a bit I think. This is where, to echo Gil St, I'd like to see Cork improve. Engage with your marker - at the very least get the ball on the ground and see what happens. In the league anyway you'll probably get a few frees before the refs swallow their whistle for the c'ship....

On the hotels question - no, De Pairc is in a cul de sac away from all humanity. City centre is only 20min walk away though.

[Cody's Cap]

What I meant by divil wasn't exactly about determination, it was more to do with going for the goal instead of taking the easy point. Tipp and Galway can score goals, I'm not saying Cork can't, it's just that they've let that part of their game go. Everyone knows that Kilkenny love going for goals and see it as an ideal way to flatten the oppostion early.

I think the other part of "divil" that I was referring to was "cute hoorism". It's been a while since a Kevin Hennessy or a John Fitgibbon was available to Cork. The type of lad who'd hang around the square looking for that one break and then bury it. Maybe the game in general has changed and there's more emphasis on lads working their arse off chasing around the place. Liam Fennelly comes to mind as a Kilkenny example.

[Leahy Abu]

The point about the Cork fwds lacking a bit of divil is well made. I posted earlier about Mark Foley. Unfortunately I think Cussen could be a similar 'gentle giant' figure. I'd be interested to see him get a slap or an auld poke and see how he'll react.

You've no fears on that score Sunday.....

[leftback]

Nearest hotel is the Clarion if the recession hasn't hit ya too hard, Jurys on the quay next nearest, in the 08 county final Cussen fairly well wore Brian Murphy before the ball was thrown in so I wouldn't worry too much about him, ya'd have to imagine the couple of years with the footballers should have fairly well toughened up.

[Proud to be a cat!]

What is your team for Sunday?
KK v Cork
This is mine:
1. Pj R
2. Brian H
3. Noel H
4. John D
5. Tommy W
6. Jackie T
7. Jj D
8. Michael R
9. John T for one half and Pj D for other half if needed
10. Richie P
11. Derek L for one half and Pat H for other half if needed
12. John M
13. Eddie B
14. Eoin L
15. Taggy

If Richie Hogan is ok, I would bring him on if any of the forwards were not playing well.
I'd bring on James R in the backs if anyone needs to be replaced with a shuffle where needed.
Hope I'm not forgetting anyone....

[stevehoyne09]

pj
c.hickey
b.hogan
dalton
tommy
tyrell
jj
tennyson
lyng
mulhall
rice
larkin
eddie
power
fogarty

[Maor Uisce]

pj
c.hickey
b.hogan
dalton
tommy
tyrell
jj
tennyson
lyng
mulhall
rice
larkin
eddie
power
fogarty

I'd say you have it bang on there..the only differnece might be in midfield or taggy might be dropped..Cody wasn't to happy when he missed the goal chance on Sunday judging by his reaction on the telly..

[stevehoyne09]

yeah id say midfield will be different alright,thats just the centrefield pairing id have ya know
aw id imagine hel still start fogarty there cos hogan is ment to be out with a broken finger
and really we have no other forwards to slot in there?

[Maor Uisce]

yeah id say midfield will be different alright,thats just the centrefield pairing id have ya know
aw id imagine hel still start fogarty there cos hogan is ment to be out with a broken finger
and really we have no other forwards to slot in there?

Forgot about Hogan's finrger..you're right.there's nobody else jumping of the page to slot in there, unless he gives Paddy Hogan a run at wing forward..

[stevehoyne09]

yeah well he might have to throw paddy in there now, cos just red on the paper rice is unlikely to be fit for
sunday cos of the hamstring problem he suffered against tipp.cody was sayin on the paper to that the GAA
should really consider bringing down the admission prices into games cos of the huge crowd that turned up
sunday.